Curse

Carth` · Dec 07, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Didn't I say this would happen? First rits, then paragons. I expect Anet to make another profession in chapter 4 that protects the whole party. I expect it to be overpowered again. I expect Anet to nerf it again. I expect the class to lose its identity and become a nothing again. I expect it to become second best at a lot of things, but best at nothing.

It stems from professions trying to do too many things, and from the necessity for a monk character trying to be lessened without making the monk useless.

Ritualist: tries to be damage dealer, protector, healer. Other classes do all of those things better.

Paragon: tries to be damage dealer, protector, healer. Other classes do all of those things better.

The other classes have well defined roles. The original ones especially, since Guild Wars was originally designed around only those. In the next chapter will we get another merging of other classes into a new character that can't quite decide what its job is?

Khaunshar · Dec 07, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

IMO its a matter of whether an expansion class is allowed to surpass a core class at its specialty. And to surpass the Monk, which I consider to be far too powerful with Nightfalls new skills now, one would need a truly wicked buff. If monks were better at healing, but worse at protecting, both Ritualists and Paragons would have a niche. However, the question is whether an expansion class is even supposed to rival a core class.

they are called core for a reason, and most PvE and PvP is core-only, or almost, these days.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 07, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

The big problem with paragons is that their design is fundamentally flawed. As I went through on the first page (yeah, the list is a tad out-dated now, I have actually found some things like "Lead the way!" to be neat), most of the skills are useless in their functions, rather than being underpowered numerically.

There are three options I can see from here...
1. Anet completely redoes the Paragon skills. (HAH! Like that'll ever happen)
2. Anet makes certain useless skills so absurdly powerful that people start using them. (At the cost of balance in PvP? Not in our lifetimes)
3. Anet adds skills in Chapter 4 that make the paragon useful and fun in PvE. (Highly likely, but at the same time, that's what... 5 months away?)

^PvE "I like many diverse builds per class" perspective, don't jump on me, PvPers.

Spura · Dec 07, 2006, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

As I went through on the first page (yeah, the list is a tad out-dated now, I have actually found some things like "Lead the way!" to be neat), most of the skills are useless in their functions, rather than being underpowered numerically.

Yes, that's why I'll make a topic of suggestions about how skills could be reworked, perhaps anet will see it and consider at least a few of those suggestions. And yes, "Lead the way!" isn't bad at all, only the whole single target = 1 energy returned thing makes it kinda expensive. But I do use it in AB when we mob and single enemies try to run away from the mob, to get in range for "You are all alone!". Then the swarm hits them hehe.

oinkers · Dec 07, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Good work on making a thread about skill rework, much better than Ekphet's leat-em-eat-cake approach.

I kinda anticipated the P/R R/P Barrage combo in the other thread (see my many moans about underpowered Paras prior to this), but as other posters have mentioned, you really need 16 in a ranger line. Paragons should have the equivalent of Barrage or a multi-projectile spear equivalent.

I know 1 skill tweak that will make Paragons indepensible, but it's not one that's yet been mentioned in this thread or others.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 08, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

It is somewhat depressing that the really neat builds have to use weapon attributes from other classes. XD

What I'd really like is some kind of motivation (no pun intended) to use the Spear Mastery att. I mean seriously, there's only so much deep wound and bleeding that is needed, and if you're really that desperate, whip out a sword. o_O
...
Hold on a tick, now there's an idea... Warrior weaponry.

Magehunter's Smash {E}
"Go for the Eyes!"
Awe
Aggressive Refrain
Natural Temper
Mokele Smash
"Lead the Way!"
Sunspear Rebirth Signet

Pick up 12+1+1 leadership, 12 hammer and 3+1 command.
Hmm, I might try this idea out at some point.
Might even work in RA or something. EDIT: Obviously replace SRS with Res signet, before someone decides to play the wise guy. :P

Fail · Dec 10, 2006, 12:17 PM // 12:17

I have Nightfall for a couple of weeks now, and have been messing arround with a P/W. Got to survivor real quick

I believe you have to make an initiel choice when making a char. If you wanna use spells to deal damage, use a spellcaster, if you wanna use weapons go for the weapons wielding chars.

The P has great armor, and superb energy managment if you know how to use it. It's a great supporting class, why else would my guildies ask me to help them when they are stuck somewhere

I agree the options may seem limited at the moment, but as many said before me. Give it time, use your imagination and whits. New builds will be found.

To conclude I think this also depends greatly on personal preference. If you wanna be a damage dealer, then P isn't the best choice, but as for support it's hard to find better.

I'll change my sec prof and test some new builds. If I come up with something I'll post it here. The synergy is out there, we just have to find it.

Spura · Dec 10, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

I'll agree that in most of pve paragon is great and enjoyable play, but once you get to more elite areas, which after completing the storyline, is what you'll most likely be doing the majority of your time, and paragon really doesn't have many options there.

As for pvp, paragon is about as used as assassin. That is not a problem as such, what bothers me is tons of useless skills, so we always see practically same skills used, and same 4 attributes.

clawofcrimson · Dec 12, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

agree with spura...good luck finding a pug in DOA and paras are not well loved in pvp in my experience.... as for unused skills see my thread (unused skills in ACTION)

also..some of the builds in the builds directory are pretty nice...checkem out

ramma77 · Dec 14, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

I'll agree that in most of pve paragon is great and enjoyable play, but once you get to more elite areas, which after completing the storyline, is what you'll most likely be doing the majority of your time, and paragon really doesn't have many options there.

As for pvp, paragon is about as used as assassin. That is not a problem as such, what bothers me is tons of useless skills, so we always see practically same skills used, and same 4 attributes.

Yeah because every other profession uses LOADS of different builds.

I haven't done pvp for a while but when i did i would see a mo/mes and know EXACTLY what skills and attributes they had. I would see a W/E and know exactly what skills and attributes they would have. I would see a R/W and know etc etc etc. I could probably go on to observe mode now and within a short time be able to predict what most professions are using.

And those people who think the paragon sucks and is second rate... you're obviously just bad at it. Sorry! *pats*